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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo
1157 Posts |
 Posted - 2002-06-10 : 10:51:44
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< >Anybody have a bat? I see a dead horse that needs a good beating.[url]http://zdnet.com.com/2110-1104-934468.html[/url]Any article with a headline of "7-year-old boy earns Microsoft Certificate" is enough to make me want to take my certifications and use them to line the bottom of bird cages. Sure it's just the MOUS but this is the kind of crap people are going to associate with MS cert holders (even the seven or eight of us that didnt use brain dumps).Come on Microsoft! Would it be so hard to make a test with a modicrum of challenge to it? I've done crossword puzzles that were harder. And I'm not even trying to make myself out to be some kind of wiz, I'm your average IT flunkie that thought a few certs would (in a small way) help me land a better job and maybe get some credability. Looks like I was way off on the credability part. Thanks alot MS, wish I could rant some more but there's a three year old chimp with an MCT in Active Directory who's class I have to attend.Justin</> |
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Page47
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2878 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-10 : 11:22:41
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| Any day now, it's gonna come true for me (as a non-certified).I'm gonna see a job posted on monster that sayz "Must NOT posses current MCDBA certification"!!!!BBWWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!<O> |
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M.E.
Aged Yak Warrior
539 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-10 : 12:20:35
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lol, thats the funniest thing I think I've ever seen. quote:
used to cut off electricity and I had to wait for hours and when electricity is back my work on the screen would have vanished and I had to redo it
who woulda guessed that power going off makes stuff on the screen vanish. I guess saving data in word is beyond microsoft certs.Justin, note for ya.. no self respecting bird would consider using them certificates for that and didn't think anyone else would have a course taught by Mr.Peanuts. Make sure you sit in the back row, those in the front normally get hit by flying feces. edit -- fixing all the typos.Edited by - M.e. on 06/10/2002 12:22:23 |
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master
3246 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-10 : 14:28:31
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| Justin, thanks for the link! I'm going to use this when I go visit a potential new client. I'll tell them, "I'm not cheap, but I'm not certified either." That should help close the deal in a hurry! (or is that close the "door" in a hurry?) |
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Ledell
SQL NASCAR Parsing Chick
107 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-10 : 19:09:34
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| Niiicccee! Just when I thought it was safe to get back in the water!!*************************Hey, Fem. Got this code from Rob. It's all on one line. Can you help me out? |
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Doug G
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
331 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 02:42:34
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| I suspect the child earned his certificate legitimately, and hopefully his energy will help his family out of what must be an uncomfortable situation.Of course it's easy to make yourself feel better by knocking someone else's achievements. In the classic "Pause for Mr. Claus" by Arlo Guthrie there is a delightful story about the "last guy", the guy that's so low he doesn't ... But that's another story.======Doug G====== |
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dataphile
Yak Posting Veteran
71 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 03:07:35
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| They don't say how many times he wrote the exams before he got it?The saying goes that if you put an infinite number of monkeys on typewriters for an infinite amount of time, one will someday have typed up the complete works of Shakespear (by chance that is).--but that hasn't been certified, and neither am I. |
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Arnold Fribble
Yak-finder General
1961 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 08:33:19
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| If you have an infinite number of monkeys and consider the works of Shakespeare to be representable in a typescript, it only requires a finite amount of time. |
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dataphile
Yak Posting Veteran
71 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 09:30:29
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quote:
If you have an infinite number of monkeys and consider the works of Shakespeare to be representable in a typescript, it only requires a finite amount of time.
I see what you mean.If I had a choice I would use a single monkey with an infinate amount of time, expiring when the goal has been achieved. ...which makes it possible to simulate in a random character generator. Yawn.What qualification did you need to work that one out? |
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Page47
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2878 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 09:50:33
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| I agree with Doug that talking about a trained monkey in the same thread as this 7 year-old is a bit unfair. I'm sure he is a brilliant kid...I think the discussion should point more toward what the Microsoft certs qualify. They attest to one's ability to learn how to use a tool. They do not require one to master a subject domain. The office tool does not require you to be able to generate a well composed letter, just as the SQL Server Certs to not require you to understand relational division.<O> |
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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo
1157 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 11:44:20
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quote:
I agree with Doug that talking about a trained monkey in the same thread as this 7 year-old is a bit unfair. I'm sure he is a brilliant kid...
I wasn't comparing the kid to a monkey, I was condemning the ease of the tests. If I was saying a kid with a cert was a chimp that would probably make me a orangutan since I have three of them myself . quote:
I think the discussion should point more toward what the Microsoft certs qualify. They attest to one's ability to learn how to use a tool. They do not require one to master a subject domain.
Don't agree with you there. Why do we not hold certifications to the same standard as we hold more traditional education? Ideally certification and education resulting in a degree would be the same in methodology and results if not in duration or breadth of knowledge. Why do you think that technical certs are just indicative of the ability to learn? Why can we not expect them to make it difficult enough to show true mastery or at the very least professional competency?If I go to a doctor he/she better know how to remove my appendix before I get there, I'm not there to be their real life trial run.If I go to a lawyer for representation they better well know trial proceedings and etiquette, there is no room for them to pick it up as they go along.Or an analogy closer to certifaction earned in shorter period of time... a life gaurd. If I start to drown that life gaurd (who hopefully looks like a baywatch babe) should already know the proper strokes to get to me quickly and mouth to mouth; its not a time for them to revisit their manuals.We hold others who possess certification or accreditations to a level of proficiency, why should MS cert holders (myself included) get a waiver? Cisco seems to be a company that has got certification right. If you hire a CCIE to manage your WAN there is no question about their skill level, they know what they are doing. Cisco makes certification dificult enough that there is no half assing it or just cracking a book for a few hours a night for a couple months. Brain dumps aren't an option because they aren't sufficient.I wouldn't mind one bit if MS made their tests alot more difficult. Give us real code to debug, make us setup a working VB-MTS-SQL Server environment in a lab. Just don't let us memorize a bunch of facts and call us certified.Concerning the article I originally linked to, I hope the kid can use the his skills to better his lot. But I don't think there would be the same defense of him if he was an affluent white kid at magnet school in southern California; I don't think his social situation has any bearing on my critique of MS' inability to come up with sufficiently difficult certifications. I don't think we are going to be seeing 7 year olds with a MOUS cert on the other end of a help desk phone anytime soon.m2c,Justin |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 11:52:32
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quote:
If I go to a doctor he/she better know how to remove my appendix before I get there, I'm not there to be their real life trial run.
Reminds me of a joke/quip: I don't want to be treated by a practicing physician, I want one who's actually learned how to do it!quote:
should already know the proper strokes to get to me quickly and mouth to mouth
Oh man, Justin, you CAN'T go throwing phrases like that around where I can see them! I'm gonna get arrested!Uh-oh, the thought police just knocked on my door! Thanks J! I think I'm gonna need that qualified lawyer now! |
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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo
1157 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 11:59:38
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quote:
quote:
should already know the proper strokes to get to me quickly and mouth to mouth
Oh man, Justin, you CAN'T go throwing phrases like that around where I can see them! I'm gonna get arrested!
Why do you think I specified she should have been on baywatch  Justin |
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Page47
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2878 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 12:12:57
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| Justin...I think we actually do agree. The cert aren't hard enuff. Unfortunately, as long as companies continue to use certification for a hiring criteria, people will brain dump to get the cert. And as long as people demand the cert, Microsoft will continue to make is easy. Because, of course, if there are only a handful of MCDBAs out there, but a plethera of Oracle Certified Professionals, then Oracle must be a more popular and thus better product, right? Microsoft is not in the business of helping developers be smarter; they will only foster that so far as it helps them sell software.....<O> |
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Ledell
SQL NASCAR Parsing Chick
107 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-11 : 22:18:29
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| Page - I think you summed up MS's motivation, to not make their test difficult, in a nut shell. Whatever brings in the dough!*************************Hey, Fem. Got this code from Rob. It's all on one line. Can you help me out? |
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M.E.
Aged Yak Warrior
539 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-12 : 11:08:11
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quote:
I think we actually do agree
For the most part anyone who visits this site agrees with ya Justin/page. Unfortunately the ones who decide who to hire aren't the ones coming to sites like this and aren't discovering that certs don't mean as much as they should. Making these nice posts on here are fun to read (I love microsoft bashing) but unfortunately kinda pointless. Kinda curious about the 7 year old kid. He didn't get the cert so he could get a job. Figure he got it just so he could get in the news? And I'm guessing he probably didn't pass it in the first try. So money probably is not an issue here. quote:
The seven-year-old son of an Indian diplomat
Uhhuh, poor kid in the worn torn nation there. Maybe I'm under sympathetic, but it seems like just another politcal stunt to make the world more sympathetic to the entire Palestinian cause.-----------------------The best answer = just do as rob or page47 say. |
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Lavos
Posting Yak Master
200 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-13 : 02:09:00
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| Heh, damn right they aren't hard enough and completely meaningless.It took me about three weeks to learn enough about SQL server without ever touching one (and knowing extremely little about relational theory) to pass the designing databases test. I could also do the administrating one (especially now that I have actually used it) but there is no point. With an extremely bad job title, a company policy that refuses absolutely all referrals beyond confirming that I've worked there, and no college degree, I'm pretty much locked out of the job market right now with or without certification. (barring getting an inside track on a job.)Blech, I wrote the report software and some other stuff for my company, and they still call in outside consultants instead of actually moving me into the IS group. (gotta love company politics. Oh well, at least it keeps me motivated to leave them.)----------------------"O Theos mou! Echo ten labrida en te mou kephale!" |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-13 : 03:17:46
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| Just a note M.E. India is not war torn, that would be Israel.....Geography book anyone??? (and I thought it was just Americans!!) PeaceRickEdited by - RickD on 06/13/2002 04:10:24 |
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Nazim
A custom title
1408 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-13 : 04:34:35
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Plzzzzz Dont get this site involved in any Political and socially sensitive issues. this has been a friendly SQLSERVER site and let it be like this. keep all your political misgivings with yourself. i close it here. its better if v dont discuss this furthur on this site and elongate the issue. Somebody lock this thread?? .quote:
Uhhuh, poor kid in the worn torn nation there. Maybe I'm under sympathetic, but it seems like just another politcal stunt to make the world more sympathetic to the entire Palestinian cause
-------------------------What lies behind you and what lies ahead of you are small matters compared to what lies within you.-Ralph Waldo Emerson |
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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo
1157 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-13 : 09:27:46
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quote:
Just a note M.E. India is not war torn, that would be Israel.....Geography book anyone??? (and I thought it was just Americans!!)
You're right Rick, India isn't war torn; but the kid lives in Palestine which probably qualifies.  Justin |
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master
3608 Posts |
Posted - 2002-06-13 : 09:35:52
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quote:
You're right Rick, India isn't war torn; but the kid lives in Palestine which probably qualifies.
Sorry, couldn't be bothered to look at the article, been consulting with SQL for a few years now without any cerification..  PeaceRick |
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It's official, MS certs aren't worth Yak poo!