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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
 Posted - 2002-08-16 : 13:34:54
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http://www.cnn.com/cnnsi/baseball/news/2002/08/16/strike_date_ap/Maybe I'm being unrealistic, but this is my idea of a real baseball player: Roy Campanella.He was the fifth black player to be signed to the Majors, played on the Brooklyn Dodgers. Before then he played in the Negro and Mexican leagues. You COULD NOT get him to STOP playing baseball. He played 4 games in one day. He played a double-header with a broken wrist...he was a catcher BTW. He was in a car accident that left him paralyzed from the neck down. What did he do then?Wheeled his f---ing wheelchair out to the field every day as a coach and manager! Even moved with the Dodgers to Los Angeles. Stayed with them until, literally, the day he died at age 71.Never once did he suggest he should be paid more money to play baseball. In fact, I don't think he cared if he got paid or not.Even when adjusted for inflation, there are a number of players who earn more in one game than Roy did for an entire season. Every one of them is on a different team than they started with.Every one of them has missed one or more games for something a lot less than a broken wrist, or even a sprain. Hangnails seem to be a lot worse today than in the '50s.Every one of them is probably taking steroids. More than one of them certainly are.And every one of them is going on strike. And none of them will return unless they get MORE money. Somehow, they can't make ends meet on $10 million or more a year.  Any major league player today who ever said or says that they "play baseball because they love it" should be shot. Multiple times. With phosphorus tracers that keep burning after they hit. And let them lie on the ground bleeding while paramedics go on strike, or the doctors and nurses at the hospital, cause holy shit, they're not getting paid enough money either!Sorry. I'm kinda pissed off at baseball players today. |
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KHeon
Posting Yak Master
135 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-16 : 14:25:02
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| Agreed! It's no longer about the game. Hell, even the minimum $200k a year is better then what I make, I sure wouldn't be complaining with that salary.It's sad really. I have a 4 and half year old son that I can't wait to take to Fenway to see a ballgame, but it's just not what it used to be.Although the majority of players do it for the money, I have to believe that there are still some, albeit very few, out there that actually play because they love the game...EDIT: Fixed some typos.Kyle HeonPixelMEDIA, Inc.Senior Application Programmer, MCPkheon@pixelmedia.comEdited by - Kheon on 08/16/2002 14:26:03 |
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Page47
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2878 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-16 : 14:53:02
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| Do you really think ball players should be held to a higher standard then the rest of us?If I thought I could double my hourly rate at this client site by striking for a week or so, I'd be on my way out the door before I could finish this post. I sure as hell don't work for 'the love of SQL'. Since when is greedy materialistism not the foundation of American business?However, no one looks forward to bringing their 4-year old to my workstation, so I calculate the chance of my strike being slim-to-none.Bottom line, as long as people want to be entertained, the entertainers are going to demand more money. There is nothing sacred.(I better put on my asbestos suit now...)EDIT: On second read, this sounds a bit harsh. I guess we all have different ways of dealing with being burned by our heros.Jay White{0}Edited by - Page47 on 08/16/2002 15:25:43 |
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setbasedisthetruepath
Used SQL Salesman
992 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-16 : 15:00:54
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| What you understand and ball players don't is that one can only act as a debutante while one is the only show in town. Baseball is fading fast in American sports. Football, NASCAR - these are the sports growing today. Baseball derives most of its money from home stadium ticket revenues - a bad idea. Just ask the Expos.Rob I couldn't agree with you more. Break out some of those willy pete rounds and pass 'em around ...Jonathan Boott, MCDBA{0} |
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rrb
SQLTeam Poet Laureate
1479 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-18 : 19:55:29
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Good to see you guys are on the side of the down-and-outers... Like poor old Rupe...(or whichever totally self-obsessed mean little rich-guy who happens to "own" baseball at the moment).After all, the players get enjoyment out of the game, poor old Rupert only gets money. (aw...)And besides, he's a bit short after a 10bn write-down which means he won't be able to pay any tax in Australia again this year!...(poor guy!) --I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money"Edited by - rrb on 08/18/2002 19:58:18 |
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Doug G
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
331 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-19 : 00:21:07
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quote:
Good to see you guys are on the side of the down-and-outers... Like poor old Rupe...(or whichever totally self-obsessed mean little rich-guy who happens to "own" baseball at the moment).After all, the players get enjoyment out of the game, poor old Rupert only gets money. (aw...)And besides, he's a bit short after a 10bn write-down which means he won't be able to pay any tax in Australia again this year!...(poor guy!)--I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money"Edited by - rrb on 08/18/2002 19:58:18
Yep, I was a lifelong Dodger fan from back when they were still in Brooklyn and I was a kid, and I rooted for them unquestioningly until Faux bought them from the O'Malley's. They are my home team here in Southern California, and now I rejoice when they lose.I don't really have a problem with the players getting all they can get, after all they are the ones generating the revenue.======Doug G====== |
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chadmat
The Chadinator
1974 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-19 : 01:59:06
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... Like poor old Rupe...(or whichever totally self-obsessed mean little rich-guy who happens to "own" baseball......only gets money...
Why is it wrong for a guy who:1. Forks over half a billion for a team2. Pays the rent on the stadium3. Pays the exorbanent player's saleries4. Whatever other expenses are involved in running a BB teamto make a buck or 2? God knows if I made an investment like that, I would want to make a return on it as well. You're damn right I side with the owners. Without the owners, there isn't a Pro game. Some might argue the same is true without the players, but I bet for every guy making $2 mil a year (and crying about it), there are 100 other guys (albeit slightly less talented, but still pretty damn good) willing to take his place for the league minimum, and be happy about it.-Chad |
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rrb
SQLTeam Poet Laureate
1479 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-19 : 03:05:37
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Ah chadmat...chasing the american dream it's true. Should I just suggest that for every trillionaire who owns a team - and is crying about it - there are 100000 other guys (albeit slightly less talented, but still pretty damn good) willing to take his place and pay the players more...  Yours - Rob-just call me Steinbeck-Brown--I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money" |
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master
3246 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-19 : 21:02:30
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Well now, let's not exagerate too much RRB... There are no trillionaires yet.  . In fact most of the guys who pony up the money for a professional sports franchise (at least in the U.S.) don't have the money to do it on their own. They're always putting together owner groups. I believe there have only been 2 or 3 professional teams bought by a single owner. (Trivia points if you can name who the teams are, who the owner is, and how he made his money).But more directly, I don't like labor strikes, whether they're MLB, Boeing or something else. But then, I'm not much of a fan of unions in general. I think the players should get as much as they can, and the owners should save as much as they can (hey, look what happened in Seattle when we got rid of our huge-money players!) and they need to figure something out or they're going to self-destruct the system. Unfortunately they don't have a pure market to work in... teams don't just go out of business and the strong survive and new stronger ones start up. They better do something to keep the lower ones competetive. |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-19 : 21:30:47
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I guess we all have different ways of dealing with being burned by our heros
Jay, I never knew you felt that way about Rob  Damian |
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rrb
SQLTeam Poet Laureate
1479 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-19 : 22:15:09
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But more directly, I don't like labor strikes
I suspect the workers don't like them either--I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money" |
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graz
Chief SQLTeam Crack Dealer
4149 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-20 : 17:35:52
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| I used to try and figure out who had a better moral position,players or owners. Then I decided to take the approach they were both taking: looking out for number one. Now I'm asking myself who is helping me more, ownwers or players.I live in small market Kansas City. It's hard not to look at baseball through the rose colored glasses of market size. Low payroll clubs have won 5 (yes, FIVE) of over 200 playoff games since the 1994 strike. I just want a level playing field. I'm in favor of which ever side makes the Royal's management and playing blunder the primary reason they lose. I'm tired of our season being over three weeks into it. I'm tired of watching great players move elsewhere because we can't afford to sign them. And before anyone says we should use our resources better, the Royals actually make over twice what the Yankees do per capita. It's just that they have soooo many of those darn capitas!Certainly there are small market clubs that do well. Oakland and Minnesota are great examples. Arizona bought themselves a championship like Florida did a few years earlier. Here's one revenue sharing plan that's interesting. It's based on market size, not payroll. It certainly has flaws. Here's another based on a team's performance. KC does real well in the market based plan and terrible in the performance plan. Which makes sense because we're small and play terrible baseball.So I guess that makes me for the owners right now. I don't care how much anyone makes. I just want a level playing field.===============================================Creating tomorrow's legacy systems today.One crisis at a time. |
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nr
SQLTeam MVY
12543 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-20 : 19:41:57
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If I thought I could double my hourly rate at this client site by striking for a week or so, I'd be on my way out the door before I could finish this post. I sure as hell don't work for 'the love of SQL'.
For the second time I've taken a low paid contract because I was fed up with ego driven companies and this looked fun.Big mistake.Follow the money - the job is probably crap whatver it looks like and never agree to a long term contract.Have a bit of sympathy with the players. If a company looks after it's staff they are willing to work for less. If not then ...==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.DTS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy. |
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rrb
SQLTeam Poet Laureate
1479 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-20 : 19:47:27
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Big mistake.Follow the money - the job is probably crap whatver it looks like and never agree to a long term contract.
How very enlightened nigel! Ever noticed how company's always have as one of their aims "to be the best..."? My current company is typical:Aim#1 "to be the best..."Aim#2 "to pay in the top half salaries..."I'm pushing hard for them to change #1 to "to be in the top half of companies" because I know I've got buckley's of changing #2--I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money" |
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chadmat
The Chadinator
1974 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-21 : 13:50:38
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...Arizona bought themselves a championship like Florida did a few years earlier....
C'mon Graz, that hurts. I want to know how they bought it like Fla. did? I don't see them dismantling the team like Fla. did, in fact (If there's no strike) they have a good chance to repeat. Who did they buy?1. Randy Johnson, has been on the team since 99 (Sure his contract is big, but he deserves it, and would get it anywhere he plays)2. Curt Schilling, They traded a lot of young potential for him (Allstar pitcher Vicente Padilla, Travis Lee, and Nelson Figeroa)3. Tony Womack, Traded for him 4. Craig Counsell, Released by the Dodgers5. Luis Gonzales, You can't claim they bought Gonzo, infact they got paid to take him (They traded Karim Garcia for Gonzo and cash)6. Matt Williams, My least favorite D-Back, but has been with the team since the beginning.7. Steve Finley, Been here since 99, signed as a FA8. Danny Bautista, Traded Andy Fox for him in 99.9. Jay Bell, been here since the beginning10. Damian Miller, since the beginning11. B.H. Kim, not that he helped in the series, but came up through the farm systemIn fact the only players they added before last season were:1. Mark Grace (An aging star who split time with Durazo, and Colbrun)and 2. Reggie Sanders(Was a starter the majority of the season, but split with Danny Bautista late in the season, he didn't even play in game 7)I hardly consider adding those 2 BUYING a world series (Ask the Cubs).I agree with you that there should be revenue sharing to help the smaller market teams. If not those teams will either shrivel up and die, or move on to other markets. Just lay off the cheap shots unless they are backed up with fact.-Chad |
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graz
Chief SQLTeam Crack Dealer
4149 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-21 : 14:20:15
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| You're right Chad. I probably should have given Arizona more credit.I do think Arizona qualifies as a small market team. And I think their payroll qualifies as a large market payroll. Thus, they are losing money to support their current crop of players. That's how I should have explained it rather than buying a championship.I do have to say I LOVED watching Arizona beat New York. That was the most entertaining series I've seen in quite a while.===============================================Creating tomorrow's legacy systems today.One crisis at a time. |
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Doug G
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
331 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-22 : 16:18:28
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| A lot of players have to make enough during their playing years to live on afterwards. Outside of sportscasting and coaching, they haven't developed a lot of job skills and are already old enough to make entry into a different career pretty difficult.During that entertaining series graz mentioned, the 30 or 40 players used generated probably well over $1B in revenue to media, teams, travel, retail sales of goodies, etc. If I were a player, I'd feel slighted if I didn't get an appreciable part of that revenue back as salary. One way to look at it, those few players generated more sales/employee in a week than most IT employees generate for their companies in a 30-year career.======Doug G====== |
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chadmat
The Chadinator
1974 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-22 : 19:44:10
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A lot of players have to make enough during their playing years to live on afterwards. Outside of sportscasting and coaching, they haven't developed a lot of job skills and are already old enough to make entry into a different career pretty difficult.
I don't think that is a valid argument anymore. Let's say the average working man makes $100,000 a year (I don't think it is anywhere close to this, but for the sake of argument). Over a 30 year career, they will only make 3 million dollars. The average ball player makes that within 3-5 years. And that doesn't even take into consideration the Time Value of Money. That 3 million in 3-5 years is worth a whole lot more than 3 mil over 30 years.quote:
During that entertaining series graz mentioned, the 30 or 40 players used generated probably well over $1B in revenue to media, teams, travel, retail sales of goodies, etc. If I were a player, I'd feel slighted if I didn't get an appreciable part of that revenue back as salary.
I think they are getting an appreciable part of that revenue! The combined salaries for the 2 teams was over 200 million, and that was regardless of whether they reached the series. So those 40 players you mention average salary was over $5 million a year. I think that is a fair amount for someone who plays a game for a living. I'm all for the players getting what they can, but not at the detriment of the game. If things don't change, there will be no baseball in 10 years. If players got their way baseball would go out of business.-Chad |
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rrb
SQLTeam Poet Laureate
1479 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-22 : 20:42:48
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I'm all for the players getting what they can, but not at the detriment of the game.
Can't argue with that. The only question then remains whether or not (when it comes down to negotiation) the players have an option other than to strike...(and not knowing all the specifics there may be!). When I negotiate with my employer, I don't have to resort to strike because I'm in lucky enough to be in an industry where I can just go find another job. That may be the kind of bargaining chip the ball players don't have...--I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money"Edited by - rrb on 08/22/2002 20:45:04 |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-22 : 22:54:35
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The only question then remains whether or not (when it comes down to negotiation) the players have an option other than to strike...
Of course they have an option. Any player can choose to cross the picket lines if indeed they do go on strike. Naturally none of them will, because for them playing baseball is secondary to making money.quote:
I'm in lucky enough to be in an industry where I can just go find another job. That may be the kind of bargaining chip the ball players don't have...
Ah, but you don't have corporate endorsement deals, TV and print ads, partnerships in restaurants, bars, and other businesses or franchises, and your stock portfolio is probably pretty small, and no one will give you a dime for your autograph. Not to mention the subtle perks of the average baseball player like free meals, transportation, clothes, women in every town.All of this just to pick up a bat 4 or 5 times a day and swing it, and run at most 120 meters.I can't have any sympathy for players who have a higher salary than the top three WorldCom executives combined (not including their stock, which is worthless now anyway). They make more legally than executives make using illegal means! If they feel they're being exploited by the owners, that's just too fucking bad, maybe they should quit, and can I get their job please? Hell, I'd love to be exploited for only $1 million a year, I've already done it for a lot less  And the point of a labor union is to ensure that workers (players) are not forced to work in unsafe conditions, are not working exhorbitant hours, and are being paid a fair wage (one high enough to put food on the table). There is no danger of a major league player experiencing any of these things. Unions DO NOT exist to take money from the employers (owners), without accepting a commesurate portion of the responsibilities and liabilities that fall on the owners, just cause they feel like spreading the wealth around to already overpaid players.If the players want to be businessmen, then maybe they should BUY a baseball team instead of playing on one. Perhaps they all should. |
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rrb
SQLTeam Poet Laureate
1479 Posts |
Posted - 2002-08-22 : 23:31:02
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I can't have any sympathy for players who have a higher salary than the top three WorldCom executives combined (not including their stock, which is worthless now anyway). They make more legally than executives make using illegal means! If they feel they're being exploited by the owners, that's just too fucking bad
C'mon Rob! Don't hold back - tell us what you really think!! --I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money" |
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F--K BASEBALL!