| Author |
Topic |
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
 Posted - 2005-03-31 : 02:17:28
|
| I just wanted to pick up on what Jeff said in [url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=47729[/url]. The first thing I want to say is that I agree with him completely. However there is a good argument that language is changing all the time and that this sort of change is a natural progression - just look at middle English (Chaucer and stuff) compared to now. You could also argue that any language has it's nuances dialects/altered meanings/spellings/pronunciations of different words. For example some words that might be used in the US would not be used over here or would have a different meaning. We even seem to have a new variant of english in text messages.I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing (though my wife may disagree - she's a teacher with an English degree and an obsession with spelling and grammer), in fact I think it may even be a good one.The other thing that Jeff is talking about are preconceptions based on this. I think again that this happens all the time. I know that I have some preconceptions about people with specific accents and I know that these are often unjustified.What do others think?steveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
mr_mist
Grunnio
1870 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 03:16:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by elwoos
I just wanted to pick up on what Jeff said in [url]http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=47729[/url]. The first thing I want to say is that I agree with him completely. However there is a good argument that language is changing all the time and that this sort of change is a natural progression - just look at middle English (Chaucer and stuff) compared to now. You could also argue that any language has it's nuances dialects/altered meanings/spellings/pronunciations of different words. For example some words that might be used in the US would not be used over here or would have a different meaning. We even seem to have a new variant of english in text messages.I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing (though my wife may disagree - she's a teacher with an English degree and an obsession with spelling and grammer), in fact I think it may even be a good one.What do others think?
I think that you should have said "grammar" there :pI think that there is no place for text speak anywhere other than on mobile phones, because they have a limited character set, and that even then it should be used as little as possible.I think that using text speak online makes you appear stupid, I don't think that it's representative of a changing language. A changing language means that, over time, certain phrasings and words may disappear from use, it doesn't mean that we all have to become semi-illiterate morons.-------Moo. :) |
 |
|
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 03:20:22
|
| Oops - deliberate mistake honest guv! Seriously though, does it make us illiterate morons? We don't use some of the frankly floral language that was in common use a hundred years or more ago. Was Orwell right?steveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
|
mr_mist
Grunnio
1870 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 03:32:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by elwoos
Oops - deliberate mistake honest guv! Seriously though, does it make us illiterate morons? We don't use some of the frankly floral language that was in common use a hundred years or more ago. Was Orwell right?
No, we don't use all the old trappings that used to go along with the language, but what we type here should still represent what is said in the "real world" at least. What is the reasoning behind the use of thx for thanks, or worse still, using something like m8 instead of mate? I mean, really, what? Will someone's fingers drop off if they type the extra two characters, or are they using the milliseconds that they "save" in time typing to calculate theories of the universe?-------Moo. :) |
|
|
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 03:52:42
|
| Don't get me wrong I absolutely agree with you but I'm just not sure if this is a passing fad or an evolution.steveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
|
mr_mist
Grunnio
1870 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 04:01:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by elwoosDon't get me wrong I absolutely agree with you but I'm just not sure if this is a passing fad or an evolution.
I would hope for the passing fad. This website is by no means the worst example of the sort of thing you're talking about, though. But even on sites that are plagued by such stuff, you will have people who dislike it, and that should be enough to prevent it becomming the norm. Hopefully ;)-------Moo. :) |
|
|
|
jsmith8858
Dr. Cross Join
7423 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 09:14:55
|
| I hope it's a fad as well. I agree with Mr Mist -- it's not evolution of phrases coming and going or changing, it's words and letters being replaced with numbers or short, non-engligh abbreviations. It's the whole teenager instant messaging thing. I don't know why, but it really bothers me. And if it bothers a "cool, young, hip techie" like me, think about an older corporate fellow who might be your boss or CFO.The problem is, it becomes second nature and/or a habit when some of these guys sit down at a keyboard. They probably don't even know they are doing it. It's a habit that they should really try to break. And, again, "old school" programmers would never be caught dead writing stuff like that. We'd had a fun discussion about this over at the DailyWTF ( http://www.TheDailyWTF.com ) a while ago and it was pretty unanimous -- using lingo like that just makes you look bad, like a script kiddie trying really hard to be a "cool hacker" or a 12-year old writing instant messages on your phone or using AOL. This is my all time-favorite right here:http://thedailywtf.com/forums/30694/ShowPost.aspx- Jeff |
|
|
|
Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)
7020 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 10:19:00
|
| What we have here is a failure to communicate:"just wanted ur thoughts and do i need a begin at the start of each if?"This person is showing a lot of disrespect with this message:1. The chat room English: no caps, "ur" for your, run-on sentence2. The stupid question. Why didn't they just try it to see what happens? Are they too lazy to spend a couple of minutes testing code?3. A mess of code posted with no explanation of why it is even there, and not bothering to format it with the code tag.Why even bother trying to help someone who does this?Maybe some buttons in the reply form for one-click answers would be useful:1. Please post your question in English.2. Please include a question or something that gives us a clue what you want.3. This is a site for SQL Server, not Oracle, MySQL, etc.CODO ERGO SUM |
|
|
|
robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 10:27:13
|
quote:
non-engligh abbreviations
Man, those are the worst abbreviations of all!  I cannot recommend this book enough:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/044020352X/qid=1112282474/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-7750178-0226562There are 3 of them so far, I only have the first one, and practically barfed while reading it because I was laughing so hard.I'm also a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE fan of George Carlin's observations of the peculiar vagaries of the English language.Otherwise, I agree that 1337 5p34k makes people look and sound dumb, uneducated, and lazy. I remember reading a story about some teacher getting into trouble for failing a term paper because it contained language like that. I can't remember exactly how bad it was, but the fact that anyone would criticize the TEACHER speaks a lot about how inappropriately common it's becoming. |
|
|
|
X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 10:37:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by jsmith8858
And if it bothers a "cool, young, hip techie" like me,
Have you looked at your bio lately?Brett8-) |
|
|
|
jsmith8858
Dr. Cross Join
7423 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 10:43:14
|
I'm a relatively "young" 32, thank you very much ! I still have all my hair!  - Jeff |
|
|
|
X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
Posted - 2005-03-31 : 11:01:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by jsmith8858
I still have all my hair! - Jeff
Me to...but it's turning...ummm...blonde.....Heading to smuggler's Sunday night...how's the weather up North?Brett8-) |
|
|
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 07:47:41
|
| I still find this subject interesting as the consensus (which I agree with) is that people don't like it because it makes the person who uses it sound amateurish/child-like etc. My question though (playing devils advocate) is - Is that a sufficiently strong argument?With the technology we all have at our fingertips, surely changes in language (and grammar) will spread faster. There are phrases I hear sometimes that make me cringe in the same way that l33t speak (or whatever you call it) does BUT those phrases are acceptable in the country that they come from and in some cases they will spread (and are doing) simply as a result of that.How can we (and indeed should we) stop that. If you read Eats, Shoots and Leaves [url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861976127/qid=1112359326/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-4900486-6225235[/url] (and I must admit I haven't) I suspect that there are people around the world who speak English who will disagree with the book. This is because it is an English book (in the sense of UK English). They may disagree as they may have slight (but significant) variations in acceptable use of language and grammar. This doesn't make the book wrong (or right), just slightly different. Aren't these people creating a new variant of the English language for the virtual world that we all live in (at least partly) where every letter costs money (and time). In the same way that those people who speak (slight or significant)variants of English have modified it to their own environment/culture etc.?It's interesting that most of the replies so far are from the UK and the USsteveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
|
mr_mist
Grunnio
1870 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 07:56:39
|
| The things is that I can find no real argument to support text speak. There doesn't (essentially) have to be a particularly strong argument against it as to not use it is the default value, but even so you could say, for example, that it is sometimes unintelligible even for native speakers, so for non-native speakers it could surely be problematic? It often relies on a certain understanding of the sound of the various words rather than just the meaning, which is wrong, IMO.So what are the arguments for it? Time saving? I don't think so. It's no quicker (for me at least) to type m8 than mate, in fact, it's possibly slower due to key placements. It's certainly no quicker for me to *read* the results, so, even if there is a gain in one place that's taken away at the other side. Resource saving (as in space) well, valid though this may be in an 80 character text message, the world of online forums rarely has such strict character limits imposed on its posts, articles and such, so the argument is void.Lastly, I would just say, try arguing a point using text talk and then try making exactly the same point without it and see which message looks the more solid.-------Moo. :) |
|
|
|
robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 07:58:33
|
quote:
I still find this subject interesting as the consensus (which I agree with) is that people don't like it because it makes the person who uses it sound amateurish/child-like etc. My question though (playing devils advocate) is - Is that a sufficiently strong argument?
Yep. I sure think so. Think of the counter-argument: "I want to talk English like a compleet mooooron LOL OMFG ROFL!!! ur just jelus cause im 1337 unlike u!" No need to argue with that, and not much point in it either.Yeah, what moo said!  |
|
|
|
jsmith8858
Dr. Cross Join
7423 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 08:43:43
|
| Rob, that book looks pretty good .. I'll have to check it out... (I mean that literally, of course: being the cheap guy I am, I'll see if it's at the library first!)- Jeff |
|
|
|
jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 09:32:00
|
Who really cares if someone uses "ur" or "any 1"...What amazes me is people who lose sleep over things such as that. If the 3lit3 haX0r's don't spell correctly or their grammar kind of sucks its not something that affects me personally. There's a timeand place for spelling correctly and that's english class or some special document you are writing for the company. If ur rushing sometimes you have to use shortcuts, so the shortcuts shouldn't be giving you old age wrinkles.A good book to pick up for anyone "How to stop worrying and start living" -Carnegie.
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]Imperfection living for perfection -- [url]http://jhermiz.blogspot.com/[/url] |
|
|
|
mr_mist
Grunnio
1870 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 09:37:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by jhermiz
Who really cares if someone uses "ur" or "any 1"...
Well, me, for one.quote:
What amazes me is people who lose sleep over things such as that. If the 3lit3 haX0r's don't spell correctly or their grammar kind of sucks its not something that affects me personally. There's a timeand place for spelling correctly and that's english class or some special document you are writing for the company.
I wouldn't say that I lose sleep over it, but if someone asks the question as to whether I agree with it or not, then, no, I don't. IMO the time for proper spelling and grammar is "all the time", otherwise what is the justification for just using it "some of the time"?quote:
If ur rushing sometimes you have to use shortcuts
Do you apply that same criteria to everything, then?-------Moo. :) |
|
|
|
jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 09:39:16
|
quote:
I wouldn't say that I lose sleep over it, but if someone asks the question as to whether I agree with it or not, then, no, I don't. IMO the time for proper spelling and grammar is "all the time", otherwise what is the justification for just using it "some of the time"?
You don't so why are you worrying about it ?quote:
Do you apply that same criteria to everything, then?
If you aren't taking short cuts in life you are wasting too much time...the google map that tells you it takes 40 miles from point a to point b is just as good as the shortcut that cuts that distance in half ???? Puhleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]Imperfection living for perfection -- [url]http://jhermiz.blogspot.com/[/url] |
|
|
|
mr_mist
Grunnio
1870 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 09:46:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by jhermiz
If you aren't taking short cuts in life you are wasting too much time...the google map that tells you it takes 40 miles from point a to point b is just as good as the shortcut that cuts that distance in half ???? Puhleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
But to say that using text speak is a "short cut" is essentially an invalid argument. It saves no time at all - unless you're a ridiculously slow typer, in which case you would be better off getting typing lessons. IMO if someone is too "rushed" to be typing you are instead of ur then a) their stress levels must be insanely high and b) they would probably benefit from better time management. Lastly I wouldn't expect that a lot of the text speakers are doing so as a short cut in any case, I'd say it's more a case of laziness, ignorance or a misguided attempt to appear "cool".-------Moo. :) |
|
|
|
jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-01 : 09:50:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by mr_mist
quote:
Originally posted by jhermiz
If you aren't taking short cuts in life you are wasting too much time...the google map that tells you it takes 40 miles from point a to point b is just as good as the shortcut that cuts that distance in half ???? Puhleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
But to say that using text speak is a "short cut" is essentially an invalid argument. It saves no time at all - unless you're a ridiculously slow typer, in which case you would be better off getting typing lessons. IMO if someone is too "rushed" to be typing you are instead of ur then a) their stress levels must be insanely high and b) they would probably benefit from better time management. Lastly I wouldn't expect that a lot of the text speakers are doing so as a short cut in any case, I'd say it's more a case of laziness, ignorance or a misguided attempt to appear "cool".-------Moo. :)
Their is hardly anything cool about spelling it right vs taking a short cut...No one said this relates to some sort of status...it's more of a if you don't do it who cares if joe blow does it. Why is joe blow's actions giving you grief? If someone chooses to spell incorrectly or their grammar sucks then it's on them not me. It's up to them to fix it if they want to fix it, but that isn't going to stop me from helping them answer a sql question or any question for that matter.
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]Imperfection living for perfection -- [url]http://jhermiz.blogspot.com/[/url] |
|
|
|
Next Page
|
Serious Stuff