| Author |
Topic |
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
 Posted - 2005-04-27 : 04:55:46
|
| Some of you may recall that I am constantly being hauled into a long running battle between some of our network admins and the rest of the worldPlease tell me if you think I am being unfair or harsh here. This is a transcript of a recent email exchange between me and one of the said network admins. The background is that we are setting up a system to allow data to be transferred between to locations around the country. This is a web application that the network admin has installed and is about to go live. I wanted to ensure that only selected users could access the application>>> Stephen 21/04/2005 13:20:25 >>>There is a requirement to have access to the web interface of our project accessible to selected users. Apart from obtaining a list of users what is the best way to proceed with this?thankssteve>>> 26/04/2005 14:17:09 >>>You'll have to tell me exactly why they need access before we can work anything out.>>> Stephen 26/04/2005 14:23:37 >>>Because otherwise they can't use the system! It needs to be accessible to certain users (don't have a list yet) and also to me. Everyone else should be denied access to it>>> 26/04/2005 14:51:46 >>>You'll have to tell me exactly why they need access before we can work anything out.<PERSONAL COMMENT> - I got a feeling of deja vu at this point <\PERSONAL COMMENT>>>> Stephen 26/04/2005 17:17:07 >>>Because otherwise they can't use the system<PERSONAL COMMENT> - Must admit to some frustration at this point <\PERSONAL COMMENT>>>> 26/04/2005 17:20:14 >>>if you won't tell me what they have to do we aren't going to get anywhere.>>> Stephen 26/04/2005 17:26:58 >>>If they can't access it they can't use the system I can't be any clearer than that. The project won't work if they can't access the web interface. They have to click on a link to push the data into the system. We just want to be sure that unauthorised users can't access itThis is the point where I left for the day. I'm not sure that I said anything in the last message that was any different to anything that had been said before (though perhaps in a bit more noddy language). He has known about this for a while and installed the web application a week or two ago. Is it me - coz one of us is being thick?steveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
AndrewMurphy
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2916 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 06:50:25
|
| Some just are thick....Which bit of the statement "the car won't start without petrol or a key" does he have trouble understanding? |
 |
|
|
mr_mist
Grunnio
1870 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 08:04:00
|
| You're not being harsh enough anyway. As a DBA your position is essentially lord of the universe, and the network chap should just do as you say ;)-------Moo. :) |
|
|
|
mohdowais
Sheikh of Yak Knowledge
1456 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 08:04:53
|
| I think he's just being difficult....he's either needs a vacation or is cynical by nature (it's most likely the latter). In such cases, I just go with the flow and do exactly what he wants. Dont get dragged into his spiral, and in the end he is only going to blame you for being ambiguous...keep your side (and your head) clear. Don't give him statements like "because they need access to the system". He wants specifics, give him specifics. Send him a two page document on exactly what the system is supposed to do and which people need access to it. If he still gives you a hard time, speak to your boss and maybe cc his boss on the emails. That is something I wouldnt recommend as they can easily spin out of control, and things can get ugly pretty quickly.OS |
|
|
|
jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 08:44:11
|
He's probably the BOFH...Read a couple of these and you will understand whyhttp://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.htmlBasically he's 3lit3 and you're not! :-p
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]Imperfection living for perfection -- [url]http://jhermiz.blogspot.com/[/url] |
|
|
|
mfemenel
Professor Frink
1421 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 08:52:51
|
| I think it's time for you to take it up a notch. Take your email chain from yesterday, make one more effort to describe the importance of the project and exactly what you need from him. Copy your boss and his boss and you'll probably see a different email from him. I use the 3 strikes rule. I'm nice twice then I make you look stupid.Mike"oh, that monkey is going to pay" |
|
|
|
Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)
7020 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 10:42:41
|
| This behavior is, unfortunately, not that uncommon with network admins. They lord it over ordinary users, and then forget their place when dealing with godlike DBAs.It's time for you to give him a smackdown.CODO ERGO SUM |
|
|
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 10:43:51
|
| I find these comments interesting. When things have gone to his boss in the past it has had absolutely no effect (nor does going to his boss) and as for mine - she just seems to accept it. It's a bit of a political minefield as he is embedded in a part of the organisation that has control over my department. My boss just wants to make them happy so in that regard I get no support.In the end we went for the explain in the minutest detail option (mind you that was only three lines!). He did later claim that he knew nothing of this web app despite playing with it on his PC shortly after he installed it!steveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
|
JimL
SQL Slinging Yak Ranger
1537 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 11:14:57
|
| Simple Rule of thumb.Who is resposible for the security this data?Sounds Like You are.You Make the call!JimUsers <> Logic |
|
|
|
jhermiz
3564 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 11:39:07
|
You don't win with politics, welcome to the real world...this is an on going ego problem that happens to everyone. Heres how it goes:age 1-12 basically a baby happy with the simple things in life13-19 teen...mid 20's+ = no life the only thing that makes you feel good about yourself is your workSo the way to piss people off is to not let them do what they want to do based on THEIR work skill set. Lose lose situation whether you like it or not...and goign to their manager or ccing their manager in an email almost always never helps. Especially in IT, some IT managers really favor their admins because the admin knows most. Therefore in your case, your network admin said no and 90% of the time his boss will agree (because his boss doesn't know any better).To get away from all these politics and the HORRIBLE ego attitudes from people the only thing to do is quit and become your own boss.
Keeping the web experience alive -- [url]http://www.web-impulse.com[/url]Imperfection living for perfection -- [url]http://jhermiz.blogspot.com/[/url] |
|
|
|
Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 13:40:45
|
| Leave. |
|
|
|
mfemenel
Professor Frink
1421 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 14:45:46
|
| jhermiz makes a good point. My suggestion really depends on what type of organization you're in. I've always had good luck with that because my boss and company in general are well organized and responsive. There are plenty of train wreck IT departments where this might not work out too well. I'm inclined to agree that you're at a dead end and should probably look elsewhere. I promise once you find a good situation you'll shake your head and wonder how you put up with it.Mike"oh, that monkey is going to pay" |
|
|
|
robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-27 : 18:11:55
|
Now, you wouldn't be making that statement based on any past experience, would you Mike? <big fat honking>  </big fat honking> |
|
|
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-28 : 02:49:41
|
Kristen behave yourself  What I find frustrating is that this little empire is only a small section of the organisation I work in and the main IT guys are great but the politics are such that the section has a fair bit of autonomy. The Head of my department is responsible (at least in part) to the section boss and so when they say that we have to "join the fold", that's the way it is. From the IT perspective the users are frustrated because they are being forced away from helpful, responsive support to a helpdesk which can best be described as obstructive and patronising. The only thing that we do have over them is a very small element of control over their purse strings but as I said this is where my line manager comes on and all she is interested in is not upsetting her pals in this section.All the users in this section seem to just accept is as they don't know any different, I've seen them laugh off things that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere sensible. Another example - they recently had some helpdesk software written for them. When people in their User Group asked for some input they were told there was no point as it was for the benefit of the IT team. So the result (no suprise) is tha there is now an application that all these users are expected to use but they don't understand half of the questions (which of course demand compulsory responses)So why do I stay? a number of reasons1) Apart from when these guys have to get involved I have a lot of autonomy2) I quite like the department I work in and I can get any training I can justify3) There is always that little bit of optimism that says - one day we will go back to being supported by the main IT department in the organisation4) I can't find too many jobs to apply for (though amd just about to send one application off)steveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
|
Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-28 : 05:17:08
|
| "Kristen behave yourself"ROTFL |
|
|
|
nr
SQLTeam MVY
12543 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-28 : 05:30:13
|
| Afraid I agree with the admin guy.A request to have access to a resource without a reason should always be refused."My system won't work without it" isn't a reason - same as saying "because I want it".OOps - rereading you are asking to allow users to have access to your system. Thought you were asking to give them access to an external resource.Suspect the admin guy misread it too.==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.DTS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy. |
|
|
|
jen
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
4110 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-28 : 08:09:50
|
| i think we have a case of miscommunication here, have encountered this conversation beforecase 1:programmer: i need update permission on table xdba: what do you need the permission for?programmer: for updatingdba:<different approach> what are you going to update? don't you have any maintenance tool for that?programmer: oh yes, i do, but i need the permissiondba: if you have the tool, users can update the records right?programmer: yes, but they call me to make the update and i do it directly on EM <not even QA!>dba: no, request is denied, ask your user to "use" the systemcase 2:dba : please allow these users to access the servernetadmin : but i don't have an accountdba : what i mean is to unrestrict them in the firewallnetadmin : why?dba : because they need to access the servernetadmin : why?dba : <frustrated> if they can't access the server, operations will be down and you'll be swamped with complaintsnetadmin : oh, operations, you should have said it beforeMost often than not, miscommunication is the root of office conflict. IMHO, you should explicitly inform them why the users need to access the server and be restricted. They're sometimes too "thick" to comprehend the simple security measures we try to implement.I know, it's too... i can't seem to find the right word, but i guess you'll get my point... --------------------keeping it simple... |
|
|
|
X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-28 : 08:57:02
|
| I live in the red sea.All they are looking for is some bull$heet answer so the can fill out some document. Which was probably mandated by their management. Once you give them one, like "Users need access to complete payroll withholding proofs" you will never hear from them again.It's that simpleAnd Stupid.Everyone has a kingdom.If you play nice, then in the future you will find them breaking their own rules. MOstly because they hadn't figured out what it takes to set up and maintain a system...so they will just add people on the fly and not keep up with the documentation...mostly cause their to lazy...Just my own personal experienceBrett8-) |
|
|
|
jen
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
4110 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-29 : 02:21:07
|
he he he, and it's working for me now... coz they're were too keen on documenting everything, so when something blows up, it's on their faceevil you say? no, that's what you call karma quote:
Originally posted by X002548
I live in the red sea.All they are looking for is some bull$heet answer so the can fill out some document. Which was probably mandated by their management. Once you give them one, like "Users need access to complete payroll withholding proofs" you will never hear from them again.It's that simpleAnd Stupid.Everyone has a kingdom.If you play nice, then in the future you will find them breaking their own rules. MOstly because they hadn't figured out what it takes to set up and maintain a system...so they will just add people on the fly and not keep up with the documentation...mostly cause their to lazy...Just my own personal experienceBrett8-)
--------------------keeping it simple... |
|
|
|
elwoos
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2052 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-29 : 03:16:54
|
| I take your point Brett. In this case I get 'random' policies appearing out of the blue (even though there is nothing written down which is what it meant to happen). So, I'm now involved in a new system that stores all policies centrally with the intention that "if it aint in there you don't do it"I'm waiting to see what happens nextsteveA sarcasm detector, what a great idea. |
|
|
|
rrb
SQLTeam Poet Laureate
1479 Posts |
Posted - 2005-04-29 : 03:41:07
|
| Beware of the net admin guyalthough he's unshaven and shyhis temper is shortand if you retortyour system will certainly die.--I hope that when I die someone will say of me "That guy sure owed me a lot of money" |
|
|
|
Next Page
|
Harsh?